This cancer is about to metastasize across the U.S. and ALL of the dirt needs to be made public for the safety and spiritual well-being of the masses. Membership Covenants ], anyway, its helpful to verbalize & hopefully dialogue). Jerry Jenkins "James and the elders at Harvest have assured us that they are in the process of seeking out every person who has expressed an offense or criticism, with the intention of meeting with them personally, hearing them out, and making things right," Jenkins wrote. After seven years, the growing congregation of 500 raised funds in six weeks to secure a former warehouse at 800 S Rohlwing Road in Rolling Meadows. Is anonymous code for little people or pew peons? So I want to say Than. Many do not seek truth, but whatever best tickles their ears. The Bible(s) of the Christian church is a very big and complex book, much of it written by men who never met Jesus, nor met anyone who heard Jesus teach. Dallas Jenkins and Dean Butters letters are only two of six submitted to the Elders. Thats my personal experience after over a decade in the fold, and several years since interacting with many former Reformed folk; no offense intended. FOR DALLAS JENKINS, telling stories comes naturally. How to do church that has nothing to do with Jesus, then. Men can be easily fooled, seduced, persuaded that they are doing Gods work, blackmailed, etc. It was then that the whole sham of our relationship was exposed, and when I rebuffed him he moved on to someone else. So this ole guy is here until the Lord moves me along or my comments stop making sense (please tell me if they do). Its like dj vu all over again. -Yogi Berra. Another typo I meant Peter and Paul. That clearly does not describe James MacDonald and HBC elders who are coming forth one at a time to confess their roles in the great deception in Chicago. elastigirl: why does it matter what Paul thinks? If Paul was a rogue usurper, Luke was the co-conspirator who legitimized the takeover. TS00: Nothing is more dangerous than a tyrant who genuinely believes in his own false mission. Rich: I think theres a massive problem with the deference thats given to pastors and other religious leaders. If I find solace anywhere, its in the quiet moments of solitude and silence wherein I sense anew that the mysteries of life are vast, and that my continued pursuit of that which is beautiful and simple and true is enough for now. The church needs the wisdom of age coupled with the energy of youth young folks to speed things up a bit, old folks to slow it down when necessary. Now this is a dichotomy because we are speaking about faith because we cannot know all facts of God, but what is done on this earth is grounded in facts and with witnesses. TS00: there are several who have commented that attended church with JMac in his youth, and they have nothing positive to say about him or his character from way back. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. When I first started reading your comment I thought it was serious and that I would have to redact the tweet. . Well, I assume that you are the Dallas Jenkins referred to in the OP, but I have no way of confirming that. That being said, I would think there is great value in making this public: as a warning for potential future victims of James MacDonald. My family faced a similar situation years ago. Sadly, many have not served well. Open Discussion Page. This article is honest and faithful to what I knew at the time. I mean, everyone thought Willow Creek was that church. Thats all it takes, my friend. Our musicians have taken to heart the mission, core, and purpose of Vertical Church music: To write songs of ascription for the church to use in worshiping Christ around the world. William J. Stewart. So join the club. You have changed my perspective and I appreciate it. * Apparently, many of the leaders sent their kids to Harvest Academy and there is fear that their kids will be thrown out of school. I send my kids to a school literally run by bullies. Through prayer and provision, a permanent location for our North Shore Campuswas found in Highland Park, in September of 2015. In preparation for the milestone anniversary of 30 years, it seemed fitting to host all our campuses together for Good Friday and Easter Sunday at the Sears Centre Arena. God put you there, who are you to take yourself out? What do you make of Luke? Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain as well (and save yourself the time writing me about how my faith must not have been that deep if indeed Im struggling with God and Jesus). Howard Hughes. Just them asking me to become an elder told me something was wrong. When people look back on the history of the American evangelical movement in the first years of the third millennium, I sure hope they will shake their heads and ask why we put up with this nonsense for so long. So instead of trying to defend these rascals, I prefer to inform and warn the church about the wolves in their midst rather than giving them a break. Many a victim of domestic or spiritual abuse might have been better protected by understanding this reality. Indeed, the simplest act of love and kindness can be profound when we simply remove all the trappings and rules of organized religion. etc. When I started diving into church history I was hoping and expecting to find an early church that looked like small home groups with decentralized leadership. not violent Not for money or fame but just because you want to show them love. Ive had 58 years to observe her fruit, and, while not perfect, she has proven generally consistent and trustworthy. My understanding is that Driscoll also consulted with Gateway. (Dee). When God leaves, it always becomes about something elseits amazing. Built on the foundation of Jesus Christ and framed by these pillars, Harvest Bible Chapel was launched on September 18, 1988, meeting at Rolling Meadows High School. You might find people here are a lot more willing to retract and set things right than the crowd youve run with. You made my laugh. Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain as well (and save yourself the time writing me about how my faith must not have been that deep if indeed Im struggling with God and Jesus). Your desire for those far flung hundreds of thousands or millions whod been influenced by his ministry to know the cold, hard truth shouldve trumped any desire to keep things in house. Today Harvest Bible Chapel is a family of Christ-adoring worshipers on multiple campuses throughout Chicagoland. Harvest Bible Chapel looks forward to the future as we continue training up ministry leaders, pastors and church plants that seek to fulfill the Great Commission in Matthew 8:28. I say run. While the vast majority of pastors and churches can be trusted, disciples who have experienced a betrayal of trust have become sobered by the thought of joining another church. A pastor or shepherd is one who devotes themselves to the care of the flock which is placed under his control. Its true, though, this is kind of an agonized therapy for me, and I am sincere. 5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. The big issue I have is with the idea that there is this one leader, a high office that this one guy occupies in a church called the pastor. You need to stop looking at yourself as a victim and a good guy and admit that you are the neo-Pharisee that you really are. Its nice to have a multimillionaire dad. What in the world is going on? Oh, they couldnt get away with that completely. I struggle to pray, to read the Bible. Thing is, if it were Bill MacDonald, a little-known pastor of a tiny church from Podunk, Alabama, and he and his wife were having marital troubles that didnt involve his abuse of others, it likely wouldnt be anyones business but his close friends and perhaps his little church. They are set in place as the shepherds of Gods people, and thus are the care takers of the spiritual needs of the church. EPISKOPOS, translated in English is an overseer or a bishop. These head pastors will gladly pay SM large fees in exchange for helping them become secret multi-millionaires. Dallas Jenkins, Executive Director, Vertical Church Media at Harvest Bible Chapel, and son of Jerry Jenkins of Left Behind fame, tells stories for a living and shares insider info about producing and directing films at Harvest in this session of the Pro Church Podcast. Its obvious that theres not enough scintilla of evidence to convict most of them of being Christian. Who started Harvest Bible Chapel? So Guidepost "determined that using Twitter was no longer an option for them." Were so far off the original model for doing church, Im not sure we can find our way back. Great! Youre standing on the right box, IMO. The only reason you dont want exposure is because you dont want damage to your film career. , Info on the photo is apparently wrong. I call it B.S. Only if this does not work are you to turn him away as a unbeliever. I guess I mean that a person, on his or her own, cant do it without God working it out in that person. I must be having a rough night. Spot on with your comment. The price has been paid, sin and death vanquished, and all may come to the Son for meat and drink with no money and no payment. People were dying for this faith from the very beginning, which suggests that it was not merely wishful thinking about some made up traditions. Prayer and then in person, second after trying that, you are to take a witness in Christ / go with a brother in Christ to confront, then and only then you must take the church elders and confront your brother that he may turn and forsake his sins. Im becoming increasingly wary of the megachurch model. In every church I was part of the pastor put forth a list of men to choose from, and the pastor was appointed from outside the church. Others became trapped by guilt and barely concealed extortion. In January, Gateway held a Pastors School Seminar inside Driscolls church that was all about Church Governance. My current frustration, as someone who wants to get it right, is not knowing how to get it right in light of all the historical evidence. Hmmm it appears that Lauren and Amy are the same person. Speaking about things which are painful ultimately helps us to learn, heal, and move on. If people develop real relationships, they might start talking and could stand up against the abuse. Scott G Winterton, Deseret News. He already gets $500K tax free per year in deferred comp, plus reportedly around $200K tax free in parsonage allowance. temperate They want the best, and so does God. At this point however the narrative cannot be controlled by people because God Almighty is acting now. Thus, I try to insert IMO where applicable. There are other places for the truly repentant to serve in the church. Im working with a couple of other groups and IMO progress is being made. Honest question: why does it matter what Paul thinks? MacDonald pulled Harvest Bible Chapel from the fellowship, breaking the link between the two. The apostles counted that an honor. Just Do. So I come here to learn, share solace and insights, and tell the odd bear joke. They can be seen all over Evangelicalism. You dont even have to be a tyrant to fall for that scheme of the devil. (Amy, thanks for the clarification on Amy/Lauren). . You should repent and make reparations where necessary. Dallas Jenkins: It was leaked. (Stacey Wescott/Chicago Tribune/TNS. The churches have become the world. You dont even need a Pastor/Dictator at the peak for things to go sour. I assure you that I do not see it as a Catholic problem, nor do I believe that all involved in the institutional church through the centuries have done so with wrong intentions. As for your dig at anonymous people, you are hoping to do the same thing. It was not just Jmac who was enriching himself. 4107 N Steele Blvd. Yowzers, you have me stumped. I dont see how you could get any further from the mark in your comment. Now, four of Harvest Bible Chapels campuses have Hope Centers to provide food and other resources to families in across Chicagoland to provide help and hope found only in Jesus. If the elders arent spiritual men, consider another church. CJ Mahaney spread $$$ which brought him years of support from the Calvinista leaders.. Together, they developed a vision for this church, which grew into the Four PillarsUnapologetic Preaching, Unashamed Adoration, Unceasing Prayer, and Unafraid Witness. The bit about only a unanimous vote of their executive council being able to remove the lead pastor theres a recipe for success when grievous wolves are not unexpected. You drive over there, and sure enough theres the house thats in the picture from the magazine article. It seems to me that there is a serious idolatry issue at HBC. "And at the same time, I'm doing a show about humans who are flawed people," he says. The Chosen is similar to Risen, the excellent faith -based film that . If I find solace anywhere, its in the quiet moments of solitude and silence wherein I sense anew that the mysteries of life are vast, and that my continued pursuit of that which is beautiful and simple and true is enough for now. Zero current power holders at Willow Creek Community Church have uttered a single word condemning the sexual crimes of founder and 42 year leader Bill Hybels. Your story matches what I hear from lots of people. I feel like Jesus is a million miles off, and I know thats got to me my fault, not His, because frankly, I ignored Gods nudges at each and every abusive church we attended (there were three), its not like I can blame Him. husband of one wife These charlatans cannot be allowed to get away with this. About how you think there is something wrong with you because you dont feel the same things that they do, and soon you come to believe that you are defective or damaged goods. Dallas Jenkins: There have been many people demanding our statements be made public, and now that they are, are rejoicing in that, 1 Corinthians 13:6 -, Im certainly not an Apostle chosen by the hand of Jesus as Paul was nor a prophet, or a son of a prophet. That incident was only the tip of the iceberg. I, personally, do find truth to be something to rejoice in. Living in what the people of Chicagoland call "the northwest suburbs" theologian Scot McKnight and his daughter, teacher Laura Barringer had a front row seat when things began unraveling at Harvest Bible Chapel and Willow Creek Community Church, and furthermore were acquainted with many of the people who became a part of our daily Twitter and blog feeds about both stories. Even the FAQ section of this blog states Dee and Deb are interested in conflict, and I am graciously assuming they mean to help resolve it, not continue or inflame it. Pastor James MacDonald, the founder Harvest Bible Chapel, a megachurch located in the surrounding Chicago area, has been fired as a leader of the church. they are kind. I prayed for your father-in-law and your family just now. https://theelephantsdebt.com/2017/06/19/headed-to-the-big-house-for-the-sake-of-jesus/. No owner of a company will hire just anyone to oversee operations. Noevangelical: So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? But please, enough with the Evil Baddy-Bad-Bad Constantine Nonsense. Which almost conquered my soul. All of the above is not an option, but it seems hard to pick one over any other. Indeed. If you truly believed your comment you would not have posted it. WHERE TO FIND US. Dan Claassen Looks like they got down into the great-grandchildren before the Church degenerated to the ways of the gentiles. elastigirl, Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ is one of the most GRAPHIC and INTENSE and VIOLENT art films ever made. Given His choice of companionship last time He was here, your friend from that Bible study might be shocked. dee: Its like dj vu all over again. -Yogi Berra, When you come to a fork in the road, take it. -Yogi Berra. . Anyone reading the title of this weeks article might very well say, Its Greek to me, and would be right! I believe that if I hadnt been a strong donor, I would not have been considered and wouldnt have vaulted through Harvest leadership over more deserving peers. It is difficult to not imagine that the overly generous salaries passed out at Harvest have a lot to do with the leaders who refuse to call for the opening of the books. Max: TS00: Or would they even care? When we separate believers into clergy vs. laity, pulpit vs. pew, us vs. them failing to equip and mobilize the saints to do the work of the ministry we miss what God intended for His Church and fall short of living in the Kingdom of Heaven here and now. you mentioned earlier, You dont have to watch a person for very long to discern whether that person is a grace filled believer or not. Another campus grew out of the prayers and intercession of a core group in Chicagos North Shore. Since you supposedly know *the truth* why dont you do what I try to do with each post? Ken F (aka Tweed): Are we any better? As if someone who chooses to remain anonymous has no right to speak. I will reflect on your honesty and embrace the possibilities. Give them what they want in the present, and they wont care about the past. Law Prof: I dont know if its just that I got old enough and wise enough to start seeing it or cynical and hardened as I got older, but after going through the 1980s and 1990s able to find what I thought were decent churches, for over a decade I havent to find a place that isnt abusive, heretical, led by a narcissist or all the the above. POIMEN, is translated to English as either pastor or shepherd. Harvest members face losing their church homes over this man, yet he is planning on exporting this secret personal enrichment scheme, that is not at arms length, throughout the U.S. Your comments often put me in mind of the older and wiser men I knew in church when I was young. Truth is real. By the end of the first century there are already offices of bishop, priest, and deacon. Were certainly no better in terms of our basic humanity, but we may have the benefit of a lot of hindsight. In our services, our ministries, our music-in everything we do at Harvest, our passion and focus are to bring God glory through His Son Jesus Christ. You will come closer to finding the genuine in third-world countries where the persecuted church resides. Muff Potter: The daughter of Matt Slick (big-gun-reformed-apologist) converted to fundamental atheism. A friend became nearly apoplectic when I tried to explain this. This man has no shame. https://classroom.synonym.com/the-role-of-the-clergy-in-the-greek-orthodox-church-12087637.html. That sadness is so deep. But they wernt. . It appears he has been a poser, a bully and a thug for a very long time. If only we would listen to what Lewis was saying, we might avoid these bullies going way back who latch onto Christianity because of all the naive fools who are suckers for the Gantry/MacDonald Schick. the powerbrokers have manipulated everyone to heavily invest their finances, their time, energy, their relationships, and their own life in the institution. Notice how you need to be part of this first hand, and not from a distance like on the world wide web for even unbelievers to see. Those who are denied the biblical right of hearing have found that there is, at last, a place where they can be heard. Both the Rolling Meadows and Elgin Campuses started food drives for the community to gather and distribute resources during the pandemic. This comes after several calls from other people including members and deacons of Harvest Bible Chapel, for them to . Cudos for your honesty. He is already in the process of trying to reboot his digital ministry (WITW)and is romancing wealthy donors in Naples, FL from the $1.2M home in Naples that Harvest rented for him. Samuel Conner: Be imitators of God, as dearly loved children, and live a life of love, even as Christ loved us and gave Himself for us. Many a victim of domestic or spiritual abuse might have been better protected by understanding this reality. Whose job is the ministry? . I just know that if one of the callers in my English Country Dance or Contra Dance communities was screaming at people or even talking in a consistently rude way, that would not stand for a day, let alone years. Unfortunate, but true. PJ: Be wary of falling into the trappings you so boldly wish expose. Never! I initially read that as bought him years of support.Same thing I guess. Bill Hybels, miracle seeker-driven leader, stands credibly accused of sexual harassment and molestation. But, assuming Paul would be cheering them on nevertheless, that opens up a door for whoever to bring in whatever in attempts to do church (and thats exactly what we have in America). He was also a member of a team at the Harvest Bible Chapel. Turns out that he was looking to fulfill his succession plan all along, and was just cycling thru people until he found one that fit. Just them asking me to become an elder told me something was wrong. I am not on Twitter myself, but I have been following others, like you. If all this was that important to the leaders they would have been apoplectic at what they witnessed from JM. David, this is something that I think needs much closer examination. Talk is cheap lets see some action. It really doesnt take long for traditions to get set in stone, as it were. As a Christian, how could they do otherwise? I was not hoping or expecting to find this. Its amazing. ++++++++++++++++++. Max: That clearly does not describe James MacDonald and HBC elders who are coming forth one at a time to confess their roles in the great deception in Chicago. Noevangelical: So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? The Apostles warned us this would happen and to be on guard, but we havent done much about it. Most of those Ive heard and experienced who tout elder-rule polity will say that this passage says anything but pew peons having any say in elder or pastor selection and/or accountability. One of my concerns with much of the Reformed world is their higher regard for doctrine and authority over the individual lost and needy soul. My comment as Amy kept not going through so I asked a family member whos previously posted successfully here to try using their account and they posted only half the comment because they thought maybe it was too long. Also, your letter simply further bolsters credibility of the excellent work from the Elephants Debt and Julie Roys. To this day I feel used, abused, and very stupid for not catching on. If Dees afraid of Hall, she sure hasnt done a very good job of living it out. Personally, I call bull. This in spite of the fact that our family was the friendly face that attracted many, the ones who were always approachable, in a way that the cool, distant pastor could not be. Lord knows we need a fundamental change in the selection of leaders for the Body of Christ and an accountability system in place to keep the charlatans at bay. Ive been in churches where folks in the pew worshiped the property more than Jesus! There has been financial fraud committed by Harvest and its leaders. Theres an AUTHENTICITY in there. As both Luke and Peter write, they use all three Greek terms in the same context, regarding the same office, filled by the same men. Elsewhere on this thread I talked about a situation where itd be cruel imo to air public matters. (just like Adam hearkening to his wife in the garden huh?) but again, oodles of people also have personal knowledge of the kingdom of God, through knowing God. Hard to imagine that they would ever voluntarily fission into smaller groups. And that tattoo you should seriously get it removed. Its a lonely place, especially when my life was steeped in church community, teaching, and deep, deep, love for Christ and His people. Care. Too many are like big box stores that shutter all of (the little churches on) Main Street, and then close their own doors forever. Every jot and every tittle is just as if the Almighty is still thundering out of Horeb through Paul. Ive tried to leave TWW twice to go fishing or something, but my fans urged me to stay. But to think you are wholly appointed by God to take pot shots from the distance, not being part of the churches who you blast then Satin has really pulled the wool over your eyes. Every church leader should be good and honest. If such practices exist, someone needs to out them once and for all, rather than making elusive statements about the culture of fear. I implore you to keep a watchful eye on those who cause trouble and make difficulties among you, in plain opposition to the teaching you have been given, and steer clear of them. Harvest CEO J Scott Milholland, was one of the men who was responsible for the $10M year secret Black Fund which was used to grossly enrich the top 20 execs at Harvest (including Dallas Jenkins). Pingback: Quote for the day | Civil Commotion, When was this statement made and to whom? Churchgoers in 21st century America are just too gullible to keep these folks out of the pulpit. But there was some dark humor in the hoopla surrounding it. I should have rechecked my facts before commenting. That, in my humble, fallible opinion, explains much of the evil that has taken place in this world. Covidfrom the start of the pandemic and lockdowns, the Worship and Creative Teams busied themselves with recordings, writing coronavirus updates, and developing worship environments that would be both accessible and God-honoring in the height of the pandemic. WHERE TO . Dallas, however, prefers a different medium film. The Didache and letters of Ignatius and Clement confirm this, as well as other writings from the early second century. I doubt that the facts will stop MacDonald from making an unrepentant comeback. It has reference to one who is seen as a care giver, or guardian for the church. With 17+ degree options, we have something for everyone. I bring up Eastern Orthodoxy because its dogma and practices are very old. It is atrocious that he is still able to live the life and spend the money as if nothing untoward ever happened. We see it mentioned on a few occasions in Scripture where elders were appointed in every city. 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